Welcome to the telling of the story podcast. I’m your host, storyteller, Jewels, and along with my guests, it’s my endeavor to explore the art and science of storytelling to attract, engage, and retain a business audience, and to unpack why it works for some and not for the many that try listening. As Robert talks about getting likes versus getting hired.
00;00;29;03 – 00;01;02;11
Robert Moorman
The way you cut through is always by balancing connection and credibility. So human connection is very important, but credibility is even more important. I think this free element, so that the first misconception about content is that we seem to prioritize likability over credibility. And the reality is likability gets you lights, but credibility gets you hired. So it’s really about how can you become a credible partner for the people that you are trying to sell to, that you try to engage?
00;01;02;13 – 00;01;14;06
Jewels
In this episode, I have the pleasure of talking with Robert Moorman. Robert is the founder of a video first content agency called Hunting with pixels. Robert, welcome to the show.
00;01;14;09 – 00;01;17;21
Robert Moorman
Lovely to be here, girls. It’s great to chat yet again.
00;01;17;24 – 00;01;33;17
Jewels
Somebody has given me the world’s shortest bio. So I know your video hasn’t always been your primary income or where you started, so maybe take me back and give us an indication of where it all began for you.
00;01;33;19 – 00;01;57;03
Robert Moorman
Start off with the dream of becoming a famous guitar player. When I was like six years old, I decided I am going to be a famous guitar player and that’s all I did and thought about all through my childhood, through my teenage years. That’s all I did was mainly playing bands. Being a basement with my guitars in my songs and effects pedals, and then it’s pretty much all I did apart from cycling.
00;01;57;03 – 00;02;19;15
Robert Moorman
I was also really pretty full on compared to cyclists, which is always a bit of a weird combination because these things don’t go well together. You playing like gigs and then doing a race next morning, right? But I think that the learning of that was quite amazing because it’s both things are pretty hard to do, like the music industry and elite sport are both things that are really hard to get into, really hard to stay in.
00;02;19;22 – 00;02;38;10
Robert Moorman
So it certainly taught me resilience. So when I was about 90 years old, I had to make a choice between cycling and guitarist, and I got signed to a label. So I thought, well, go on tour with the band and getting free beers everywhere and doing gigs seemed like a great career option. And it is when you’re 19.
00;02;38;12 – 00;02;39;28
Jewels
Absolutely living the dream.
00;02;40;05 – 00;02;57;16
Robert Moorman
It’s weird because you aim for something and then you leave the thing. And of course when you leave the thing, it’s different from what you think it is. So it was interesting as an experience because I always loved the art of creating music. I really loved the studio. I loved the writing part of it, didn’t love the touring.
00;02;57;19 – 00;03;17;04
Robert Moorman
Rock was touring is 80% of what you do because you have to promote the album. So a few years in, I realized that’s when I hits the same German city or French city. On the tour for the third time, I realized this is actually not what I want to do as much as I loved it. And it was a big dream, and it’s something I always thought about.
00;03;17;07 – 00;03;36;07
Robert Moorman
But I realized that actually I just want to be in a studio and make things. So I listen to music production, and I did this for a few years, also for the same label I was signed to at the time, and then after a while, the band that was recording in my studio was starting to ask me if I could make their music videos.
00;03;36;10 – 00;04;00;20
Robert Moorman
So we started the met and then in that experience, I started to learn how to produce and edit video content and realize that actually music and video production are actually very similar. It’s a short story. It needs a rhythm. You basically create an arc in A23 minutes time span. So the transition from music to video production was pretty seamless.
00;04;00;23 – 00;04;32;09
Robert Moorman
From there. I ended up working for MTV for a few years. Great, you know, music and television. So to like and after a few years of that, I realized that what I started was always about the creative pursuit. And what ended up was I got really interested in people and the stories and the psychology of storytelling. And the turning point for me was when we were making a bar in the UK at the time in London, and we’re making a documentary about Black History Month.
00;04;32;09 – 00;04;56;02
Robert Moorman
So we were interviewing fighter pilots in the 90s at the time, who came over from India, from from Jamaica, from all these English colonies, moved to the UK in 1940 to help the motherland. So they were mainly fighting on the side of the of the Brits. And in Second World War, at great dangers to themselves and out for true idealism.
00;04;56;04 – 00;05;17;23
Robert Moorman
It’s amazing. But I remember interviewing these Indian fighter pilots and it was a really big 95 at the time. Frail man, very, very sharp, you know, mentally. But, you know, 95 and we turn up and this is a whole crew with the lights and everyone wearing jeans and t shirts and talking to the kind of third person like he needs to put his microphone on.
00;05;17;26 – 00;05;45;17
Robert Moorman
He looks a bit like this because light is not there. And I realized there must be a better way to do this, because being in front of a camera was already very intimidating for this man. But we as TV crews just don’t think about at the time. So we just didn’t think about the human element of storytelling. Like, what is it actually that will help this frail old man tell the best we can about this fighter pilots experience?
00;05;45;19 – 00;06;14;15
Robert Moorman
And that made me realize that I wanted to create a company where it’s not scary, that actually helps people tell stories, that makes a person who tells a story. The absolute center of the experience can always technology the lights, the cameras, the people, how to behave around you. They’re all secondary. So the human is the hero. And that’s got me to where I am now, which is running a video production agency that specializes in helping people tell the stories.
00;06;14;18 – 00;06;23;04
Jewels
How was the transition between the, you know, Europe and Australia? When did that happen for you? It’s you now based in Australia?
00;06;23;07 – 00;06;28;28
Robert Moorman
Yeah, I’m not very straight. I moved here in 2008, so I’ve been here about.
00;06;29;05 – 00;06;30;20
Jewels
What brought you to Australia.
00;06;30;22 – 00;06;49;16
Robert Moorman
I met an Australian lady in the in London, as you do, as you do. And I grew up in the Congo myself, like in Central Africa. And all my early childhood memories are all outside because there was only outside, you know, there we started with the cities. There were no toy shops or in, in the compound in the middle of the Congo, nothing but jungle.
00;06;49;23 – 00;07;15;29
Robert Moorman
And I wanted a bit of that for my children, too. I wanted to be in a country that is still figuring itself out. It still has beautiful scenery and wildlife. It’s dangerous. And yeah, it just seemed really appealing to me. Australian because it’s a country in the making. It’s not the finished products. Vanilla is very old and great in so many ways and me, but I felt that Australia I find very appealing in that respect.
00;07;16;06 – 00;07;47;03
Robert Moorman
But it’s also been interesting living and working in four different places that I lived and worked the Netherlands. I lived and worked in Germany and UK and Australia and it’s been really interesting to see even neighboring countries being so very different. We assumed it’s Western culture is kind of similar and it’s actually not the case. And one of the things I noticed was it is a big difference between cultures is actually how we tell stories and how we disagree and how it plays out.
00;07;47;04 – 00;07;49;20
Jewels
Tell me a bit about that. How do we disagree?
00;07;49;23 – 00;08;10;13
Robert Moorman
Well, I think disagreement is something you can be afraid of. And I think we naturally, because we are the most social beings on the planet, human beings don’t like, disagree. And that’s okay. That’s because that’s how it works. But when it comes to disagreement, there’s two ways to look at it. You can look at it with fear and avoid it, or you can look at it with curiosity.
00;08;10;16 – 00;08;40;02
Robert Moorman
It’s like, oh, that’s interesting to us. That’s interesting that you say that. Or it’s interesting that you and I have such a different idea about that. Tell me more. What I see a lot is that’s the so afraid to have difficult conversations that we just don’t have basically. And what that plays out in is there’s one disagreement. Then everyone agrees it’s our enemies from the moment onward, or they just talk to each other and then there’s litigation at the end of it.
00;08;40;04 – 00;08;41;07
Robert Moorman
There’s nothing in between.
00;08;41;09 – 00;08;43;26
Jewels
Are you talking about Australians here or are you talking.
00;08;43;26 – 00;09;06;19
Robert Moorman
Yeah, I think Australians in Australia I was, but all these countries are different. So the UK, the Germany, Zealand and Australia are all very different. And it’s like in Germany people just give you the data, that’s it. And Dutch are similar in the sense that I think there a part of Dutch culture. Where do you sumption. So if I need to tell you something that you need to know, I tell you.
00;09;06;21 – 00;09;39;24
Robert Moorman
And how you respond to that is entirely your responsibility. And it comes across as a bit brusque. And I find when I move to the UK, what I really liked about how people deal with this equipment in the UK is that they, and in Australia that they think more about the emotional impact of the potential disagreements they look at, they acknowledge more of the feelings are but then in that sometimes there can be either a lack of clarity or sometimes people just simply don’t tell you what you need to know.
00;09;39;24 – 00;09;42;19
Jewels
For fear of hurting that person’s feelings.
00;09;42;19 – 00;10;05;28
Robert Moorman
Or yeah. So I think we tell ourselves to that we are so such a nice person because we don’t want to hurt other people’s feelings. But what it really is is this, that we are we can be becoming we we, we cut the bits currently about how we behave like, oh, I’m not going to say the Jewels. That’s, you know, this thing was a bit that your particular email wasn’t too great or something.
00;10;05;28 – 00;10;12;27
Robert Moorman
You know, you there might be something that you did that I don’t like that could be better. I can decide to walk past it.
00;10;13;00 – 00;10;13;14
Jewels
Yeah.
00;10;13;16 – 00;10;35;15
Robert Moorman
And say, I don’t want to hurt your feelings, but what it really is, is, is me going, like, I just want to deal with it. I don’t want to deal with it because Jewels make me angry or cry or, you know, still be friends. So I’m just going to walk past it. And in doing so, I actually rob you of the opportunity to at least take on the information, even if you don’t agree with it.
00;10;35;15 – 00;10;59;19
Robert Moorman
Right. But say that I would have noticed something about you podcast. You go like example, if I see someone put a post up with a spelling mistake in it, I don’t put in the comments, but I will directly miss the message. The person’s like I noticed this. Your title is because I could walk past. It is like not a problem, but if it’s embarrassing, why not just help someone you know someone’s got some food on it?
00;10;59;19 – 00;11;13;11
Robert Moorman
She didn’t just say, look dude, you could, you could clumsy you because yeah, yeah. So and this ditzy I’m a bit of a flippant softy. Yeah, but you know what? If there is a great opportunity for the other person to improve.
00;11;13;13 – 00;11;22;29
Jewels
It’s the time we learn and grow, right? We only get there if we’re able to get that feedback. Otherwise we. We’re only learning and growing in our own bubble. You know. Yeah. Experience.
00;11;23;01 – 00;11;49;20
Robert Moorman
Absolutely. And I think that’s the difference between empathy and compassion. If I’m empathetic to you, I try not to hurt your feelings. If I’m compassionate, I’ll also try not to your feelings, but I think I need to tell you something that I think you might benefit from. And that is I think that’s a really knowledgeable cultural difference. And for an example, the German word contortion, which is the literal translation in English, is disappointment.
00;11;49;24 – 00;12;04;29
Robert Moorman
What intuition really means is stoicism is when there’s a veil. So intuition is that the veil has been taken. So if you disappoint me, it’s not that I that I think I have negative feelings about you, but I got a cold. It’s interesting. I didn’t know that about you.
00;12;04;29 – 00;12;09;14
Jewels
I have uncovered something about me rather than disappointed me in the process.
00;12;09;17 – 00;12;27;22
Robert Moorman
Yeah. I think when you look at the political sphere, or if you look at your LinkedIn conversations where things get so binary so quickly, you know, the other person must be wrong, or if someone doesn’t understand and someone disagrees with me, doesn’t mean the stupid they they just look at the same data and go and come to a different conclusion.
00;12;27;22 – 00;12;47;22
Robert Moorman
Or they may have not figured something out yet. In a way, I figure it out. It doesn’t mean that I’m right necessarily. I’m wrong about stuff all the time, you know? So. So why wouldn’t I accept that other people have their own thinking process and also generally have a totally valid point of view that I don’t agree with?
00;12;47;25 – 00;13;00;23
Jewels
Do you think it maybe stifles to some degree innovation? Because if we’re all agreeing about the same thing, then we’re not really shifting the doll or or moving our thinking too much from the center.
00;13;00;25 – 00;13;24;08
Robert Moorman
I think what that triggers for me is diversity. So I think having divergence in your thinking in a group is super useful. You know, like all the great bands of this world and two singer songwriters who have a different style of thinking and that friction is actually super useful. A great band can use that friction. You read a breakup or you figure out.
00;13;24;15 – 00;13;26;04
Jewels
Or you go, can you? For 70 years.
00;13;26;09 – 00;13;50;24
Robert Moorman
How can we make this work? You know, how can we make it? Because it does create really interesting music, as does interesting content. You know, like having points of view where you explore different ways of thinking is that friction is it’s creative. Friction is incredibly important in any team, whether it’s your engineers or creatives. You have to have creative, constructive friction.
00;13;50;26 – 00;14;12;20
Robert Moorman
And that comes from diversity. There is this idea that, you know, we want diversity, but we don’t want it to be pain. It’s like, well, it’s not going to happen. Like creative friction is a pain because if you come up with a song, the drummer does like it, that’s a pain to go out and play the song. Of course, if the drummer this comes up with a better drum loop, you’re like, oh, that suddenly have a song like 50 Ways to Leave Your Lover.
00;14;12;27 – 00;14;30;20
Robert Moorman
You know, if you know the song, the drum still makes the song without the drum fill song would be okay, but who wouldn’t be brilliant? It that creative friction is actually what what makes things great. I think it’s only with storytelling or decision making where innovation we have to. We have to stop thinking it’s supposed to be easy.
00;14;30;23 – 00;14;38;04
Robert Moorman
It is not supposed to be easy. It’s a process. And the disagreement part is so important because this agreement is interesting.
00;14;38;07 – 00;14;49;10
Jewels
You also mentioned that culturally we’re a little bit different in storytelling as well, not just in conflict, but storytelling. Tell me how we differ in our storytelling styles.
00;14;49;12 – 00;15;15;02
Robert Moorman
I think that’s, what I noticed when I lived overseas. And you would meet Australians or Americans that Dutch or German people were like, oh, guy’s got the flapping hands. And he speaks really loud. And yeah, you know, it’s it’s a bit too much. So I think Australian culture has a very bubbly, extroverted feel to it. And we really love that we we love extrovert, bubbly people.
00;15;15;05 – 00;15;34;13
Robert Moorman
Where I found when I lived in Germany that there was seen as too much. I was a bit over the top. Yeah, I still have introversion extroversion, but the range within that where people play is narrower in some ways. I find that, the way of delivering things was a bit more toned down, compared to Australian story.
00;15;34;14 – 00;16;00;28
Robert Moorman
Time has changed, though, as we are becoming a global, more globalized, and we we’re all kind of becoming more Americanized in how we communicate. But that sometimes comes at the expense of the diversity of thinking and feeling. I certainly notice that that’s it’s very easy to forget the quiet people, but we forget that half the world are quiet people and they will relate to quiet people more.
00;16;00;28 – 00;16;19;21
Robert Moorman
And when we work with marketing teams, we often have a discussion. When you pick, you know, you got a team of 50, 60, 70 people and we’re about to make a video and we asked marketing team who would be great to talk to, oh, you know, Guinness is 4 or 5 people. They’re a little bit great. What do you mean, we’re great?
00;16;19;24 – 00;16;48;20
Robert Moorman
Oh, you know, it would be good on camera. So what’s good on camera? Well it tends to be extroverts confidence disproportionately male certain age certain look. And you actually in doing so you narrowed the scope of your storytelling. Because the reality is someone who is extroverts and confident will present will camera. But the question is, is that person relatable to everyone?
00;16;48;23 – 00;17;11;00
Robert Moorman
You know, diversity of storytelling is so boring because there are really fundamentally different ways of thinking. Some people think about data first, some people think about visuals. For some people are quiet, some people are loud. Some people like detail, some people don’t. You have to actually find the balance between all those preferences and really know your audience in that respect.
00;17;11;00 – 00;17;31;04
Robert Moorman
You know, if you sell to engineers, you can’t have a guy with flapping hands and a loud, projecting voice doing a marketing spiel because they want details, because they have to get it right. So engineers are driven by will the thing work? And I will look at as much detail as necessary. So I am sure that the thing will work right.
00;17;31;04 – 00;17;44;28
Robert Moorman
So as we do the casting process, as you pick people to tell your story, you’re very mindful of getting the cognitive diversity arise. You know, and I think that should be a learning peaceful. A lot of organizations.
00;17;45;00 – 00;18;21;18
Jewels
Speaking to your audience to right. Just having in mind who you are speaking to, who’s going to make a difference, even if you’re an extrovert and you’re talking to, let’s say, a technical audience, it’s important to understand that, right? If you’re too loud and gregarious and over the top, then you should have enough so awareness to say, hey, maybe I need to tone it down a little and be a bit more direct and a and maybe a bit more fact by in this particular story, if that story is to go out to a more technical database, who might, you know, who are maybe a little bit more reserved, don’t like the big song and dance,
00;18;21;23 – 00;18;30;28
Jewels
just want to hear the facts, right? So having enough awareness to understand who you’re actually trying to to get your message out to is important, right?
00;18;31;01 – 00;19;00;07
Robert Moorman
Absolutely. And I think it’s always about balancing the storytelling with the data, like how do you find the right balance between the evidence and the story? And I think that’s absolutely key because the way we sell these days is actually a very high expertise piece of content. The goal, or the days where we have salespeople puts you hand in your door and just kind of create this performative piece that was used to be sales.
00;19;00;09 – 00;19;28;23
Robert Moorman
And now you see that salespeople are highly knowledgeable, technical problem solvers. They’re not salespeople as such. They are people who are very good at the very niche piece of knowledge and content. So the content we create to help those sales teams needs to reflect that. You know, I read this really interesting statistic about how people buy cars two years ago you had a car dealership.
00;19;28;23 – 00;19;49;18
Robert Moorman
You had your car so you would sign them up every day. You had 2 or 3 salespeople in there, and and eight people walk in the door and one buys a car. Know that was embedded in the metrics that most people literally target, because these days, pretty much every single person who walks into a showroom is about to buy a car because they’ve done all the research already beforehand.
00;19;49;18 – 00;20;14;05
Robert Moorman
They know all the specs, they know which color they are, they know where to buy it. They’re just looking for the best deal. And then it becomes a trust building exercise because your product is exactly the same. Highway 85 is the same here than it is in the dealership down the road. So what are you doing to build the trust that you’re the right person to deal with, and your content should be about that.
00;20;14;05 – 00;20;19;02
Robert Moorman
It’s a trust building exercise, not simply talking about what the product does.
00;20;19;04 – 00;20;40;19
Jewels
So talk to me a little bit about that in a video context. What’s trust building mean and what does that look like? If I’m a business owner and I’m looking to get out there a little bit more and get my face out there a little bit, how important is the trust? And you’ve said it’s incredibly important. So what does that look like when I appear on camera?
00;20;40;21 – 00;21;06;04
Robert Moorman
Well, I think the way you cut through is always by balancing connection and credibility. So even connection is very important. But credibility is even more important. I think there’s three elements to that. The first, I think misconception about content is that we seem to prioritize likability over credibility. And the reality is likability gets you lights, but credibility gets you hired.
00;21;06;07 – 00;21;30;21
Robert Moorman
So it’s really about how can you become a credible partner for the people that you are trying to sell to that you try to engage? The second piece is really about data. You have to make data, and the hero stories are great. Stories are very important, but ultimately the data is part of the story is really what gets you over the line, which gets people to engage in a meaningful manner.
00;21;30;21 – 00;22;00;15
Robert Moorman
It’s really about nurture and engagement. And the third piece is really about time. Credibility is something you build over time, so you need to create proof over time that you are the right person to talk to. Because the reality is, you know, your audience is only ready to buy 5% of the time. The other 95% of the time, you’re simply being top of mind and providing all of the proof, all of the evidence that you are actually the right person to work.
00;22;00;17 – 00;22;24;22
Jewels
So in this world where there is so much information available and AI has come up through the ranks very quickly in in the most last couple of years. So there’s an enormous amount of content being created in various formats. How do you cut through all of that noise? Like I always the everybody else is content. Is there lots of different formats?
00;22;24;22 – 00;22;46;23
Jewels
You know, video is just one format of of content that goes out in the marketplace. And as you say, a lot of people do, 90 plus percent of they research well before they even interact with the car dealer or any business for that matter. They’re already doing their research anyway, so they’re consuming somebody’s content. How do you cut through when there’s so much noise?
00;22;46;25 – 00;22;54;00
Robert Moorman
It’s becoming increasingly difficult. That’s the reality. We are creating 6.8 billion pieces of content on a daily basis.
00;22;54;04 – 00;22;55;11
Jewels
That’s just you and me, right?
00;22;55;17 – 00;23;19;03
Robert Moorman
That’s you. And me and our robots. It’s the robots. See how you and me, plus our AI tools or I won’t say AI tools. This is creating this enormous avalanche of content. And the platforms have picked us up. Of course, they have to find a way to effectively stop the tide of AI, slop coming through. And, Google just hired 16,000 people to actively look at the quality of your content.
00;23;19;06 – 00;23;41;08
Robert Moorman
So the answer lies in this, that I think you have to create quality content over a long period of time and accept that simply getting punching through and getting love of really quickly, those days are over. You know, you just have. We always go back to the old version trust building, which is you just have to keep turning up over a long period of time.
00;23;41;10 – 00;24;02;18
Robert Moorman
I think if there’s anything you want to do this, the main thing is that’s I think the first thing is to think before you prompt. So the reason that I content is so available but also so lacking in impact is because it’s too generic. There is a jewelz way of looking at the world, right. And there’s a robot moment way of looking at the world.
00;24;02;18 – 00;24;27;16
Robert Moorman
And AI is going to help you figure out what it is you actually need to do that thinking you have to think before you prompt, because the prompting kind of dissuades you from that thinking process is like, what is the thing that I’m really about? You know, and I think the prompting just creates so many options that you can start following the prompt and you’ll end up with okay content, but it’s generic and it’s not very meaningful.
00;24;27;18 – 00;24;56;18
Robert Moorman
So if we want to stay top of mind, create regular pieces of content. And I’m thinking anywhere between 2 to 5 pieces of content a week. I don’t have to be all video, but you have to stay top of mind and within a mind. I think it’s really important to find a workflow that’s easy to maintain, because that’s the second thing where I see a lot of content fail is that people give up because they simply run out of puff.
00;24;56;21 – 00;25;16;07
Robert Moorman
There is a lag between when you start posting your content. Initially, very little seems to happen for a while, and it’s because the algorithms are picking picking up that you’re doing stuff. People going like, oh, this guy, he’s not really going anywhere. He just keeps coming up with these blogs and it starts kind of creating a bit of momentum.
00;25;16;07 – 00;25;37;20
Robert Moorman
It’s very organic, but it’s also very slow. So you have to find a way to fit it in the life that you currently have. The idea that you can just take it on to your full time job, or just fit it in. You always have to be very deliberate about if I’m going to do this content stuff and it’s like, say, two hours a week, like I spent two hours on Monday between 9 and 11.
00;25;37;20 – 00;26;08;21
Robert Moorman
I make all my content for the week, including the video content. So there are things that I’ve decided not to do on the Monday, because it’s the only way to make time. I have to don’t list, and I’m going to put a few things on the to do list, and then we can get started. And the third thing that often happens is that people start and they gave up the idea because a lot of times, you talk about before or the gremlins turn up, you put 1 or 2 pieces of content out and then the self-doubt kicks in like, oh, man, this is not working.
00;26;08;28 – 00;26;28;03
Robert Moorman
Maybe I should try a different direction. May I add me? Maybe I sound should I sound more like Rene Brown? Or should I be more like Seth Godin or whatever it is? And you kind of lose track? My experience is that as you start, you need accountability bodies. You need people who actually actively support you. I will give you an honest opinion.
00;26;28;03 – 00;26;47;07
Robert Moorman
So it’s often not your partner or your mum or your colleagues because they’re going to say, and it’s all great. You know, people say everything’s great. You need actually a few people around you that maybe it would be maybe on the same journey. So we start putting together a little groups of other content creators, different industries, different place in the content journey.
00;26;47;07 – 00;27;07;03
Robert Moorman
But it helps to once a month get together, go like, what do you think puts you on the field but the video blogger put out? Or what do you think of the tone, the voice of that piece piece of written called that I created? Because having a sounding board and accountability buddies is actually what keeps you going once you get started.
00;27;07;05 – 00;27;16;07
Jewels
So which one of those three do you think actually is the biggest barrier to most people? Is it the mindset the gremlins is at the time?
00;27;16;09 – 00;27;32;29
Robert Moorman
Well, if if you look at the metric, you know, 97% of people on LinkedIn don’t post at all. So how is it that 3% of the people on LinkedIn make all the content you know, and 97% of LinkedIn doesn’t make content? And I think the reason for that is that most people just want to get on with the work.
00;27;32;29 – 00;27;58;01
Robert Moorman
They just want to do the work. They don’t want to be a content creator. But what happens there is that the people who are invisible are often just good at being visible. They’re not necessarily the best experts or even that good content creation, but they’re just there. So I think there’s no way around being visible now. Like simply the idea that you can do good work and that will build a healthy business.
00;27;58;01 – 00;28;26;22
Robert Moorman
I think that’s becoming increasingly difficult. So I think the biggest barrier is really never starting in the first place. And what I’ve observed in myself and certainly with our clients, is that we often have all these excuses, you know, like I’ve been around cameras for 25 years now. The first 15 years of being in a room with cameras, the lights and everything ready to go didn’t make a single piece of content about me.
00;28;26;29 – 00;28;56;02
Robert Moorman
What we do and my excuse was, oh, I’m a behind the scenes guy. I like helping other people. I don’t want to put myself on a pedestal, you know? I don’t want to be an influencer. I just want to do good work. I do exactly the same things that my clients do. You know when I examine that more closely, I realized that I was just postponing social risk because the pain wasn’t big enough to go like, well, I’m sorry I have to put myself out there.
00;28;56;04 – 00;29;14;21
Robert Moorman
But the reality is, by not putting myself out there for all these years, I played a much smaller game than I should have, you know, and I had a really interesting conversation with Vicky Nowak about it yesterday because we talked about, you know, what is it that that stops people from changing? Because really what this is, is change, right.
00;29;14;24 – 00;29;41;00
Robert Moorman
And she said, you can be really, really high level of expertise in one area. And you’ve always been seen as an expert. You feel you’re an expert. And then when someone says, hey, you should go to the network. For instance, you go like, oh, I’m a total beginner at that. Remember? Rubber said, right. And I think the downside of expertise and the downside of experience can be that it makes us reluctant to be a beginner again.
00;29;41;02 – 00;30;02;29
Robert Moorman
And I had that experience when I moved to Australia. I had a network of zero people and literally knew nobody in this country, so I had no choice but to go on network and I was always fiercely against networking. I was nonsense, just do good work. Stick on your website. You’ll be great. I didn’t have business cards for ten years when I ran my company in the UK and in the Netherlands I did.
00;30;03;01 – 00;30;25;27
Robert Moorman
In Australia I was like, it doesn’t work here. Yeah, I don’t know anybody. I have to actually go out and build trust. So I had to learn to network. And it was this was challenging because I made all the mistakes that everyone else makes. And then I realized a bit further on, a trick is networking is actually just going into a room and having a really nice conversation with 1 or 2 people.
00;30;25;29 – 00;30;45;10
Robert Moorman
I realized I don’t have to work to room and get 20 people business cards. I just find 1 or 2 people that I really like hang out with, and I just have a nice conversation with them. That’s it’s yeah, we can find each other on LinkedIn next day. That’s great. And out of that attitude, I found the way to make networking work for me.
00;30;45;13 – 00;31;11;23
Robert Moorman
And I think it’s the same with content. I think it is hard to start something new and and we worry about the social risk. So there’s two factors the working against us and the only way to get past it is to to actually enjoy being a beginner again. You know, it’s like, oh, this is interesting. And the second bit is pretty much everyone will recoil the first time they see themselves on the video.
00;31;11;25 – 00;31;28;14
Robert Moorman
So I had that experience. You know, I finally got around, okay, I’m going to make a video blog. Great. I feel myself. And it was, oh, it’s horrible. It’s like, oh my God, I’m so terrible at this. So a share of the whole thing. And I try it again and I go, you know, I’ll, I’ll try not scripting.
00;31;28;14 – 00;31;49;12
Robert Moorman
So first I tried scripting of all the cue. I looked like a robot. Horrible. I tried off the cuff, didn’t work. I tried to have a beer while I was feeling myself. That didn’t work. And at some point, I believe a friend of mine who is, an industrial designer, he interviewed me. He’s like, no, he’s not an expert on content.
00;31;49;13 – 00;32;09;06
Robert Moorman
He’s the designer. But in the first conversation, I realized that that actually kind of works. Yeah, I this is the first time I looked at myself like, oh, it’s I actually, I do know stuff. And then recently I actually you interviewed me, right? And we sat down and I looked at and it’s like, oh, that’s really interesting because you threw a bunch of questions at me.
00;32;09;09 – 00;32;35;27
Robert Moorman
I didn’t prepare well. I did prepare for 25 years because I’ve been running a company for 25 years. This is stuff I’ve known about. Of course I learned something, and all of us have learned so much by running a business. Right. So there is nothing to prepare you know your stuff already. The question is, have we would ever create the right environments in which we can tell a story in that environment?
00;32;35;27 – 00;32;48;07
Robert Moorman
For me is a conversation with someone we use, throws a few interesting ideas at me, and we spitball and we we come up with different ideas and different tangents. And I’ve created single that.
00;32;48;09 – 00;33;09;28
Jewels
It’s what I have draws me to. Your style of it is is your interviews all right. So you often you usually sit behind the camera and just throw out the old questions. And as you’ve just described, the types of questions that you would ask me. So I’ve been in front of the camera with you a number of times now.
00;33;10;00 – 00;33;35;04
Jewels
And the type so every, you know, every time you ask the questions, the types of questions that come out are not questions that I would have written down if you had have asked me. Right. And so just your different framing or just the words that you use, or the tone of voice or the phrase or the or the angle is different enough to create a slightly different response than I would have pre organized.
00;33;35;04 – 00;33;55;25
Jewels
Right. So like you say, you know, after 30 plus years in business, hopefully I’ve learned something. And so the answer to the question is often there it’s more about what’s the question that you’ve asked and how have you asked. And therefore what comes to mind at that moment. And the style that you used to me brings out those different moments.
00;33;55;28 – 00;34;19;12
Jewels
I too, started, you know, I think you and I met something like 15 years ago where I gave, you know, self video production, a bit of a crack. And I look back at those now and absolutely recoil at, you know, both the quality and my style and, you know, the camera angles and the lighting. It was all terrible.
00;34;19;15 – 00;34;51;20
Jewels
But you’ve got to start somewhere. You’re going to suck and it’s going to suck for a while. And even when you think you’re doing okay, you you will continue to improve over time, right? So you and I were talking before, just before I hit record, and you mentioned doing the rips. So to me is about, you know, that consistency in execution, no matter what fear is holding you back and no matter what, you know what you think might be thrown at you.
00;34;51;20 – 00;35;17;29
Jewels
Right? So, I learned that a little while ago, particularly in my blog writing. I’ve been writing for nearly 15 years now, actually just over 15 years, up to something like 615 blogs now, which, and a lot of the early ones were terrible. But it took me probably ten years to make the decision to actually start writing for myself.
00;35;18;02 – 00;35;39;06
Jewels
So rather than overthinking, you know, how do I sound? Water. You know, is anybody going to like this? Am I, you know, worthy enough? You know, all of those kind of questions of self-doubt and and consequence. I started going, you know what? I’m just going to use it a little bit like an out loud therapy session right where something comes to mind.
00;35;39;06 – 00;35;56;01
Jewels
And I just want to write it down and just get it out there. And by getting it out there, you kind of release it to the world. You’re fine. Tune your message a little bit, you start to get better at it. It starts to become easier. Video has been different for me. Similar journey, but not as frequent.
00;35;56;04 – 00;36;26;28
Jewels
And so I’m still learning, right? So I still don’t necessarily like the way I look on camera or come across, but to me it’s about putting in those rips, right? So as you said, being consistent, doing it, you know, on a weekly basis, making sure you’re producing a number of pieces every single week, putting it into your routine, to me has been a massive shift in my thinking, but without it, there’s no way I could ever produce the volume of content that I’ve now produced.
00;36;26;28 – 00;36;48;20
Jewels
Around 600 something blogs, 50 odd podcast. So I’m writing my second book. It’s all content, right? And hundred, you know, I don’t know how many videos either. Somewhere in there there’s probably 100 or so videos as well, right? So I know I have it on a there a little bit, but tell me a bit about if somebody out there is listening and going, yeah, I get it guys.
00;36;48;20 – 00;37;02;28
Jewels
But I still don’t, I don’t even really know where to start. Is video the right place to start necessarily, or how do I get out there, get out of my own way and start putting in some reps, even if it’s just a few?
00;37;03;01 – 00;37;25;05
Robert Moorman
Well, I think there’s two things to that. And these are two things that I’ve, I’ve had interesting conversations about recently. One is that you have to look into other people’s rearview mirror. Brené Brown wasn’t always brown. You know, her first stuff was was, you know, mediocre, but you can’t find it anymore. It’s disappeared. Like, all of the stuff is great now, that you find online.
00;37;25;05 – 00;37;45;29
Robert Moorman
But another person I really admire is Michael Dixon, and that is really nice conversation, but with Michael Dixon about it, because Michael Dixon wasn’t always Michael Dixon, right? He’s awesome now. But we we were in a bar and we’re having a drink and he showed me some of his early content and it was still there. You know, it had 50 views on YouTube and it was all over the place.
00;37;45;29 – 00;38;11;08
Robert Moorman
And I love that he that he didn’t take it down because you can actually see the progression and you go like, oh, that’s where you started, you know, early Craig Furniture, Gary Furniture. Awful. It was way too slow. So Google was spitting in your face and talking too loud. I was like, what is this? Yes. You know, so the starting point is everyone is going to be a bit shit or really, really bad.
00;38;11;10 – 00;38;35;12
Robert Moorman
You know, the difference between people who eventually succeed and who don’t is that the people who succeed are in the 3% of people who will will keep going anyway, you know, and you see it in sports heroes, people who are not even that talented. But there was so persistent, they kept going. I saw it in the music industry, you know, it was not always the most talented, was just the most persistent people who just kept going.
00;38;35;15 – 00;38;53;07
Robert Moorman
But I would really advise you to look at it as a journey. You know, the thing you do now is just going to be as good as it’s going to be, but it’s still worth posting because no one looks at you the way you look at you. Right? You will go like, oh my God, you know, the hair, the accent.
00;38;53;10 – 00;39;10;09
Robert Moorman
I can’t wait. I’m too old, too young to female to male to whatever, you know is no one is interested in that. Everyone is so caught up in their own stuff that they don’t think about what you look like. You know, if you have something interesting to say that they can learn from, then they will watch your content.
00;39;10;12 – 00;39;28;26
Robert Moorman
So that’s the first thing. Look, look in the rearview mirror. Look in other people’s rearview mirror and see that that’s the journey. The key is just to keep going. And the other bits is about doing the reps. You know, you have to do the reps, to get better. It’s a misconception that you need clarity and confidence to make content.
00;39;28;28 – 00;39;50;27
Robert Moorman
That’s actually not how it works. Clarity and confidence comes from doing the reps. You have to start somewhere, and a good place to start is to actually have a sounding board and like it was my experience. If I just get interviewed by someone, it brings out things that I would have never thought of myself. The reason my initial complaint was a difficult is never try to do it alone.
00;39;50;29 – 00;40;11;16
Robert Moorman
What you which you really need, is a sounding board of someone who interview you. Someone who maybe gives you some, some honest feedback on your content and then you have to do the reps. I recently had a conversation with Jake Harris. He’s a mindset coach, business mindset coach. And we talked about the similarities between our businesses.
00;40;11;16 – 00;40;32;25
Robert Moorman
You know, like he tries to change people in how to think and how to act. I try to change people by finding their voice, starting on the content journey. And then we talked about like, why is it that so many people give up too quickly? You know, they they commit to a change and they, they just don’t do the they you stop doing the thing.
00;40;32;28 – 00;40;59;06
Robert Moorman
And Jake said, you just got to do the reps. You do the reps. And as you do the reps, you get marginally better, get a bit more confidence, a bit more clarity. You start saying, oh, this thing is working great. Do not a rep can fit better bit more confidence, bit more clarity. And then suddenly three six months in you found that thing that is like, oh, that’s the Jules mystical way of looking at the world.
00;40;59;06 – 00;41;21;18
Robert Moorman
Let’s do a lot more in that way of looking at the world. So I don’t have to I don’t compare myself with two to with 250 other video production agencies. I just go like, go hunting. It’s pixel stands for a deeply human centric way of making content and if 2% of the market goes like, oh, I like that we’re in great shape and the rest doesn’t care, that’s good too.
00;41;21;25 – 00;41;33;15
Jewels
What advice would you give to somebody early in the journey? I mean, we’ve talked about just getting started and getting reps, but, you know, what’s a couple of things somebody could take away and do, you know, easily tomorrow, today.
00;41;33;18 – 00;42;07;01
Robert Moorman
I think filming yourself is always a good way to learn. So when you do a presentation or you talk about a subject, just film yourself and then take into account that you are going to reject what you see. And that’s okay too. That’s just human. That’s just how we all think this is what we do. So my trick for that was to actually get someone else to, to sign off or to edit it, just like, look, here’s my raw material.
00;42;07;03 – 00;42;36;19
Robert Moorman
You look at it and you think, you tell me what you think. And that really, really helped me just get something out there. So the two big barriers are not getting started in the first place. And the second big barrier is giving up too soon because it will take time and you just have to keep surrounding yourself with people who are honest or a sounding board who are supportive, but give you honest feedback.
00;42;36;21 – 00;43;13;08
Jewels
It’s one of the things I love about your process as well, Robert, is that you know when you get in front of the camera, you know, if you spend too much time thinking about something, you will often overthink it, right? You’ll go down a rabbit hole. You you try and make things bigger than Ben-Hur, when in fact, the process that you’ve taken me through, certainly, and I believe is your style for for most is, you know, by asking those questions and even asking maybe even the same question in a couple of different ways, it allows me or, you know, whoever’s in front of the camera to just to some degree, almost ramble on.
00;43;13;08 – 00;43;36;08
Jewels
Right? So answer a question, answer it this way, answer it that way. Take a deep breath. Think about something. The camera is always rolling, right? So after 30 minutes or an hour of filming, you’ve actually captured quite a lot. But one of your gifts, I believe, is finding the a story within all of that noise. Right? So after an error speaking, you’ve said a lot, but have you actually said anything?
00;43;36;12 – 00;44;04;10
Jewels
Doesn’t feel like it sometimes. Like you come out of it going, wow, I just rambled on for an hour. God knows what I said, right? I don’t even remember what I say. But then magically, when you start carving it up, it’s those marker stories, those 32nd to 90s snippets we choose are often either a single answer or a part of an answer that, in an isolation, actually sounds really fantastic, right?
00;44;04;11 – 00;44;32;06
Jewels
It can sound like, wow, this guy’s really thought that through and really nailed it. And yet it’s probably taken an hour of footage to find that, you know, maybe ten 30s snippets or ten 90s snippets, which is fun. But that’s, I think that’s, you know, coming back to doing the rips the more you speak out aloud, for example, on video, the more times you do that, you will refine your message, you shorten it, you tighten it, you’ll become clearer.
00;44;32;09 – 00;44;48;08
Jewels
And so the rips is really about just finding the simplicity in your story sometimes, rather than because I think we tend to ramble on a beer on. And I’m guilty of that, like everybody is. So you just keep going when in fact you answered it five minutes ago.
00;44;48;13 – 00;45;18;27
Robert Moorman
Well, I think the clarity piece is we think we can outthink our own brain. Yeah. We think if I just sit down and just wait long enough, this clarity will come. And the reality is we do our best thinking, not in isolation, but with others. So conversations are so enjoyable because you’re both thinking together, you know, like, did the Dutch have this, the saying, let’s, let’s set up a tree.
00;45;19;00 – 00;45;51;07
Robert Moorman
And what it means is we’re going to have a long conversation, and we start with a branch, and we’re going to get more branches and more branches, and we’ll we’ll build a tree together. And it’s a really nice I think, a nice metaphor for conversation. It actually, you both builds the building blocks to create this whole realm of stories and creating this in collaboration with someone who is good at listening, asking good questions, and keeps an overview of the tree that we’re building together is really important.
00;45;51;07 – 00;46;15;11
Robert Moorman
So when I look at photography or video content production, people think, oh, it’s the lights and it’s cameras, microphones. It’s like, that is maybe 2% of the job. To me. There’s there’s two key bits that make a video producer really good. It’s one is that they need to be interested in everything. So you need to be empathetic and interested in everything.
00;46;15;13 – 00;46;36;12
Robert Moorman
If you can’t find a way to be interested in something that you’re interviewing someone about and don’t turn up because you’re not going to get a good interview. The second piece is, as you build a tree, as you build all those stories, you still have to be able, as you speak to the other person to edit in your head how all these things are going to go together.
00;46;36;14 – 00;46;52;29
Robert Moorman
So as I interview, I will go look, okay, the grammar on that line didn’t quite work. We’ll circle back to that. But I never asked people, can you say that again? I just think it’s just one of those things that when I worked for broadcast, if you just say, hey, can you just say it again but a bit more like that?
00;46;52;29 – 00;47;18;25
Robert Moorman
Or if you look at the window pensive and look like you’re blah, blah, it’s like the people we interview are not actors. They’re engineers, business coaches, you know, consultants, lawyers don’t make them do. The TV presenter thing or, you know, the actor thing. We just have to find a way to have a conversation within the stories together. So it goes together on a piece of content.
00;47;18;25 – 00;47;30;20
Robert Moorman
But the number one thing is just to be interested in other people, you know, and that’s that’s what I hire for when I work with actors or camera operators. Like they have to be interested in everything.
00;47;30;23 – 00;47;32;26
Jewels
You have to have that curiosity, right?
00;47;33;03 – 00;48;07;03
Robert Moorman
Absolutely. It makes the job so interesting. You’re like, I’ve been I think we’ve interviewed between 6 and 7000 people and I’m still excited about shooting with Ricky. No luck tomorrow. Like, oh, leadership. Oh do tell, you know, because she’ll have an angle that I’ve never thought about or I will learn something. And isn’t it great? Like I get to ask a whole bunch of questions to incredibly interesting people of an enormous range of industries, personalities, cultural backgrounds, so it never gets tired us.
00;48;07;05 – 00;48;25;18
Jewels
Robert, I love your work and I love working with you. And I implore anybody who hasn’t yet worked with you to actually reach out because you do a fabulous job of what you do. You’re a craftsman and you make the whole process pretty easy, which is fun. And part of the joy of of turning up as well. So please do reach out to Robert.
00;48;25;19 – 00;48;30;27
Jewels
Robert, how would somebody do that? How would they find you either online or or directly?
00;48;31;04 – 00;48;50;28
Robert Moorman
Well, you know, we have a website of course, https://huntingwithpixels.com.
I love LinkedIn, I think it’s the only social media platform that’s by and large really positive. So we have it’s how do we fix linkedin.com/huntingwithpixels. We can just Google my name or find it on LinkedIn. I think LinkedIn is a great place to learn and to connect. So that’s where we hang out.
00;48;52;24 – 00;48;54;24
Jewels
Thanks, Robert. I really appreciate your time.
00;48;54;27 – 00;48;56;00
Robert Moorman
Thanks for having the agents.
00;48;56;03 – 00;49;00;05
Jewels
Cheers.
00;49;00;08 – 00;49;31;04
Jewels
I loved Robert’s perspective on communication and diversity of how different people in different cultures think, feel and react can make for great opportunities to collaborate, which leads to the importance of diversity in your storytelling. In order to relate to a broader audience, to get your message heard and understood. Much love. Chat soon.
